Curse

BaconSoda · Sep 26, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Before we start the flamethrowers, lets get down to buissness. The Paragon is a support unit formed over the basis of shouts, chants, and echos. First the explaination of Shouts, Chants, and Echos.
Shouts: Shouts are a unremovable type of support that effects either all enemies or allies within an area known as "earshot". Warriors also have shouts, but they are now widely uysed by Paragons.
Chants: Chants are used like Shouts, but can stack with shouts. Paragons are the only class that uses chants. Chants are also affecting all within earshot.
Echo: Echos are target activated, and renewed whenever a shout or chant ends on that target affected. Echos stack with shouts and chants.
Ritualists: Ritualists are support characters focused around spirits and weapon spells. Explaination or spirits and weapon spells:
Spirits: Spirits effect every ally on the mini-map, and are removable by killing the spirits. Spirits can stack with each other.
Weapon Spells: weapon spells are unremovable enchants that do not stack with each other. They do not stack with each other, and only effect allies, their damage, and their attributes.

That is the information Have ammassed about how Paragons and Ritualists support a team. I would say that Paragons are a better support than Ritualists, merely because their main source of support cannot be directly removed. Their only downfall would be the large recharge times on their greatest chants/shouts, and high adrenaline costs on many chants.

You may begin flaming now:

Tuner89 · Sep 26, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Although I agree, Paragons are exceleent support, I think it is arrogant of you to neglect their offensive abilities. Especially when combined with thier own support, Paragons make amazing offensive stands. They are, in almost all ways, a ranged warrior, wich is what I think Anet was striving for.

LightningHell · Sep 26, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

But this thread is comparing both's defensive capabilities, not their offensive capabilities...

draxynnic · Sep 26, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I'd probably say it defends on how mobile you expect the fight to be.

If you're expecting to be defending a fixed position or otherwise fighting in one place for a long time, the Ritualist wins - especially if you get time to prepare and preplace spirits before things start happening.

In a more mobile battle, I think the Paragon wins, simply because the Paragon won't be leaving the source of their support behind all the time and having to go through the long summoning process all over again.

Of course, this is ignoring alternative builds like a Ritualist purely oriented towards the use of weapon spells, direct healing, and possibly item spells, but in general, if you want to stay in one place you take the Ritualist, if you want to move you take the Paragon.

CalypsoX · Sep 26, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

But this thread is comparing both's defensive capabilities, not their offensive capabilities...

Not true. The topic of this thread clearly states who is better at SUPPORTING their team, so it applies both offensively and defensively. IMO, the paragon wins hands down simply because ritualists are so lacking in the mobility and offensive support category, though they are better now in the latter than previously with the updated skills.

Edge Of Malan · Sep 26, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

So if you want to support your party, you should take a Par/Rit and your team is undefeatable? You'd have excellent stationary support, then when the enemy retreats, you'd have very good mobile support to chase them down and take their heads.

Anir · Sep 26, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I think it will come down to the effectiveness of "Within Earshot" range.

Also, I think since Paragons rely on spamming so many Shouts/Chants (to maintan Echoes, for example), skills like Diversion and Blackout could be much harder for a Paragon to deal with.

Cirian · Sep 26, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I think this is a case of comparing apples to oranges, and I really havn't made my mind up on Paragons yet either. I see they have a re-usable rez signet and plenty of heals, so on the surface they look ok... but very different from Ritualists.

They may synergize together really well come to think of it, given their differences. They can both behave as a blanket protector and blanket healer in different ways, so combining them might be really effective. Maybe!

harshateja · Sep 29, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Not to be mean or anything but I really dislike the whole "apples to oranges" aphorism used so often on nearly all gw fansites involving profession comparisons - at some point everyone makes a decision. Whether arbitrary or not, you can't sit there pondering which one is better and then say "neither!". Ex, assassin verse warriors. Sure they oth have their strengths and weakness but each thread gives a certain perspective and within that perspective, you have to decide which is better. Don't just say you can't compare them - thats the beauty of analysis.

On Topic - I'd have to say I woudl take paragon for:

1) You can only support your team if you are alive and rits are prime targets for spiking. Paragons on the other hand have almost the armor of a warrior and can easily take a beating.

2) Paragons are usually more actively casting than ritualists. Yes, this can be a problem dealing with mesmers but in most other cases its actually a benefit because it allows for more spike heals which are more helpful in the long run as a support monk will be handling the endurance heals.

3) Ritualist offensive support skills are, for the most part, sub par compared to Paragon offensive support skills. (Of course, this is remedied by the huge AoE effects of defensive spirits).

4) Paragons just look much cooler than ritualists

Vermilion Okeanos · Sep 29, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

In my view, paragon were better facing a team that use more spell damage; ritualists did better against a team that use more attack actions.

As an ele, I hated the paragon on my opponent's team. They are harder to kill with a ele and they still can do decent support for their team to keep themselves alive longer. While that same ele will decimate the ritualist spirits 1-2-3, and a spiritless ritualist will fight a tough battle.

On the opposite, paragon's support and heal are generally slower than ritualist; most paragon in the weekend also used +armor supports. These make them stronger against any dmg not armor ignoring and not in spike form. This is where assassin come in... they would really rip paragon's support apart, as most of the time paragon support do not arrive before the target is dead at the sin's feet.

Depending on the build, but generally rit need to decrease their support's vulnerability, and para need to decrease time used from 1 support to another.

Minus Sign · Oct 01, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Before the Communing spirit double nerfs, I would have said that they are equal but different.

post-nerf, I think the Paragon will provide more reliable prot to a team, and remain far more flexible than many prot rit builds today. "They're on Fire" provided solid support with a 4, 6 and 8 man groups when used with Blazing Finale in the PvE and the PvP tests I did.

Rits are becoming more offensive with their prots; gearing away from shelter to supply a nich support role for the teams they play in. Many are turning to sort of an anti-prot with prot. Think ele blindbot runner and you know where i'm going.

The thing about Paragon prots are that some builds can already be defensive in nature while still providing respectable damage against enemies. I think it unfair to look at them as only "prot builds" because of this.

These aren't monks we're talking about.

What I'm more worried about is what Paragons will be worth after Nightfall is finished. Will we see another over-nerf (I'm not disagreeing with the nerf--it was needed--I just think they hit too darn hard) to a sub-character to protect the Big 6 from losing prominence in GvG while they showcase our new toys?

TadaceAce · Oct 01, 2006, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Based on a party of 8, paragon heals better for sure, I agree with apples to oranges, you can't compare them. They are just so situationally different.

unholy guardian · Oct 01, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

i think they can really go together well really, 1 monk 1 rit 1 paragon would make an awesome combo really.

BaconSoda · Oct 02, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

On the note of thinking "apples to oranges" it is wholely comceivable to compare apples to oranges. Example: red delicious apples are red when ripe, clementines are orange when ripe.
By saying that both are better in certain situations is the whole of the comparison. In what situations is the paragon better offensively and defensively? In what situations the Ritualist? Come now, what is a comparison of classes than the comparison of effectiveness under certain circumstances?
I have to say, "apples to oranges" is a very bad way of saying "incomparable", and have seen it used far too often now....

Omega X · Oct 05, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

On the note of thinking "apples to oranges" it is wholely comceivable to compare apples to oranges. Example: red delicious apples are red when ripe, clementines are orange when ripe.
By saying that both are better in certain situations is the whole of the comparison. In what situations is the paragon better offensively and defensively? In what situations the Ritualist? Come now, what is a comparison of classes than the comparison of effectiveness under certain circumstances?
I have to say, "apples to oranges" is a very bad way of saying "incomparable", and have seen it used far too often now....

"Apples to Oranges" is an Idiom. Yes they are both fruit but are completely different from each other.

With that said, it would not be wise to directly compare Rits to Paras. They are both support classes but are completely different from each other.

Ensign · Oct 06, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Comparison of the defensive capabilities without bringing up the individual skills that would be used is a waste of time.

Peace,
-CxE

jake jacobs · Oct 07, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

i need to ask u all something whats the AL on the par?

now thats out of the way, i think that compairing rits to pars is like comparing waffles to pancakes. still thiough, i would like to see the par in a higher lvl PvE setting but i think thats what they r good for. because in PvE, youre constantly moving around and with a rit, you have to establish a spirit base for it to get going, when with a Paragon all you need is some nrg and adr and you can get going ne where. Rits are a mor PvP class while Pars are a more PvE class. but that doesnt mean that Pars cant be used in PvP and Rits not in PvE. but for the most part, ppl dont really switch them around

Avendiel · Oct 08, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Multiple paragons stack together far, far better than multiple ritualists, imo.

Lord Palidore · Oct 09, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake jacobs

i need to ask u all something whats the AL on the par?

Max armor is 80, identical to most warriors.

The Paragon's AL is just one more thing that really makes me like it that much more.

The class is an inspirer, buffer, enchanter, and supporter, yet has the armor of a warrior...
It's just a satisfying thing to know.

I dont tend to play classes/builds that can get killed so easily, I just dont like it, which is why I usually stick to tanks, or well protected builds in other classes. Quite honestly, I do like the idea of any kind of ranged/support class than a straight-forward, up front warrior. The Paragon is a dream come true for me, as now I can play a class with good supporting potential, and not die so much

.

Tainek · Oct 09, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

See my thread above for a good look at what a support paragon has access to, as a long time hardcore ritualist player, the paragon can do much, much more both defensivly and offensivly (in PvP Especially)